Hi I’m Philip Grass and this is my blog.
I’m a stay-at-home Dad. Outside the usual distractions of family life I’m interested in Genealogy, particularly Genetic Genealogy, Whisky, Gin, Good Food, Personality Typing and IT (not in any particular order). As a result I expect everyone will find something they find un-interesting on this blog, sorry.
To date, March 2017, I have no commercial interests for this blog (i.e. no one has paid me anything to mention any product or service). Naturally I will mention any form of commercial sponsorship on this blog.
learnalittleeveryday 
Thanks for following Shaking the Tree; much appreciated.
Hi there
I like your research and blog. I have a Sarah Jane (Sally) Bell in my ancestry. She married George Cotton in 1832 in Lissan. I don’t know much about her but saw your mention of the Bell family so thought I would say hello. I wonder if we share DNA? I tested and am on Gedmatch number T507021. I can be contacted at kezdriscoll@gmail.com
kind regards Kerry
Hi, I am Swedish and got my y-DNA test back a week ago. Did a 37 marker. Still struggle to understand it. On my fathers side my first known forfather came from Thustrup in northern Jutland in Denmark. He was born approx 1590. Family moved to another part of Denmark that became Swedish. Most of my ”hits” are Denmark, England, Scotland and less frequent. Sweden. Have exact hit on the 25 marker on S-2293 in England and distance 4 on the 37 marker level, distance minus 2 on Iz138 Denmark. Tests say I have I-M253 but it is the stem as I understand it. Is there any conclusions that can be drawn?
Hi Otto, thanks for the question. Let me try and help with some answers. Firstly it’s probably mportant to understand what type of answers you want. Typically yDNA testers are doing the test for three reasons:
1. To connect with others with their surname to extend the paternal line back. This is common among US testers as it helps connect them back to early colonial families.
2. “Citizen Scientists” These are people, like myself, who are interested in extending and refining the yDNA Haplotree – and often end up investing in the BigY product. For genealogical purposes there results are often, not very useful. I’m currently the only person on my leaf of the haplotree and I probably share a paternal-line ancestor with my closest yDNA matches over 1000 years ago.
3. To help identify a recent paternal ancestor (or at least try and find a surname hint). A yDNA test may connect you to a well-researched surname.
Going on to your results. I-M253 (also known as I1) is very typical for people with Scandinavian/Northern European heritage and is believed to represent “Upper Paleolithic European hunter-gatherers” (from wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253). As you say I-M253 is a stem, formed c27,500 years before present (ybp) with a “Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) of c.4,600 ybp (According to this haplotree at yfull https://www.yfull.com/tree/I1/). The large difference between the two dates is due to a “population-bottleneck” where your hunter-gatherer ancestors were in a small group of people that interbred and only one line is known to have survived.
Regarding your matches. ftDNA provides a TiP tool (the small orange icon next to each match). These show the probability that you share a common paternal-line ancestor within 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 etc generations. I suspect that these probabilities are a little high. The actual match numbers you have (exact at 25 markers, GD=2 and GD=4 at 37 markers) are not especially significant. My closest match at 25 markers (GD=0) is not close enough to be a match at the higher 67 marker level. If you are interested in inproving the predictions I’m afraid the answer is to upgrade to 67 markers.
If you are interested in refining your haplogroup there are a couple of ways forward. Firstly you can use one of the online haplogroup prediction tools. There are two good ones, both free. These are the NevGen tool (https://www.nevgen.org/) and the YSeq Haplogroup predictor (https://predict.yseq.net/index.php). I suspect both will tell you that you are haplogroup I1.
Secondly, there are some very good research groups that can help. The most useful would be to join the I1 yDNA Haplogroup at ftDNA and, if you are on Facebook, the “DNA Haplogroup I1 (M253)” group. These groups can normally advise you on the next steps and possible outcomes if you are wish to get a more recent/more precise haplogroup. The most comprehensive way to do this is through the BigY test at ftDNA. A cheaper half-way solution may be to take the “I1 Superclade Panel” at ySeq (cost 83.15€). YSeq results can’t be integrated back to your results at ftDNA, but on the other had they are cheaper than ftDNA.
Hopefully this answer has helped. If you need more info please feel free to contact me either here or via northyorks.genealogy [at] outlook.com.
PS. If you do test further and fall somewhere into the I-Z138 haplotree then the I-Z138 group at ftDNA and Facebook is a fabulous resource.
Thanks Phil,
My purpose is just curiosity of where my great grandfathers came from. Painting a picture so to say. Done mapping on my heritage and followed different lines both on my mothers and fathers side. On my fathers side I get way back but the Y-Gene so to say stops in ca 1590. Special surnames came late in Scandinavia. You got your fathers first name followed by son or dotter as surname depending on gender. Since I got most y-matches in Denmark and England I guess it could be related to the viking ages and/or the anglosaxons. I wonder if my forefathers themselves or close relatives went there or if I am likely to be a descendent to träl/thraell brought back. Or if the relationship is much more weak or older than that and does not relate to any ”recent” migration in the last 1500 years. Have no paternal english forefathers in the passed 500 years. Very sure about that. Guess my current test wont be able to indicate that. Have a couple of i- z138 markers. One is a 25 marker with distance 2 in Denmark. On the 12 marker I have i-z138, 31,39 and i-z60 in Denmark, Sweden and England (X2000). Relevant distances to join the l-z138 group?
Hi Otto,
I see that the you have found the I-Z138 group and the Danish DNA Project. I’ll leave them to answer your questions, as they have a way better overview of the available data, but just to answer a couple of your points:
1. I think there is still too little data to know where DNA mutations formed, especially to identify your own ancestral journey. On that note I think the research that came out last year on the Vikings is especially relevant as it shows that the Vikings were quite a heterogeneous group (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/09/viking-was-job-description-not-matter-heredity-massive-ancient-dna-study-shows). In addition, IIRC, Denmark was also quite a trading hub from goods and people.
2. For what it’s worth I would be tempted to take the ySeq I1 Superclade panel test if I were you (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?currency=EUR&products_id=43455). This will advance you down the haplotree and confirm the slightly ambiguous STR data you have. It may also “inspire” you to test further. Many/most people will argue against this approach as the results can’t be included in your profile at ftDNA AND it’s wasted money that could be used towards a BigY test. It’s an individual choice.
HTH, Phil
Thanks Phil,
Might need to do a bigger test. As I understand the tests that came out last year they tested skelletons in trading hubs in the norse perififery. Can imagine that customs changed on a regional basis but except for burial customs and artifacts they dont know much of what they tested. Will be interested when they do more extensive testing on scandinavians not living close to those hubs. Not many such hubs have been discovered. Ciities did not really exist in Scandinavia. It was very much a rural like society. think the tests from the autumn say that some people in norse trading hubs adopted norse culture or was buried that way.
Hello Phil. I stumbled across your blog while trying to do some research on the I-Z138 Haplogroup. I have recently completed the 23andme DNA test and I to belong to this group. Loaded my test into a site called MyTrueAncestry.com and it showed common DNA with many ancient finds. I am a complete novice when it comes to DNA but find the search for ancient relatives to be fascinating. Looking forward to finding out more
John
Hi John, glad to hear you found this blog and welcome to the I-Z138 haplogroup. If you are interested in exploring your yDNA then I have three points that I hope will help. Firstly I suggest you join the I-Z138 group on FB – https://www.facebook.com/groups/Z138Project. This is where you can find most information on the haplogroup (and is a very friendly group on top !). Secondly bear in mind that I-Z138 was formed c.4,500 years ago, so there is a little way to go before your haplogroup matches into the surname era. And finally, whilst there are many ways to progress your testing the most common path is thru familytreeDNA.com, but if/how you test further is very much dependant on what you want to achieve.
PS. You may be also interested in this site, which maps the ancestral path of I-Z138: https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=I1&clade=I-Z138
Best Wishes,
Phil